New Shoes

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jenny
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New Shoes

Postby jenny » Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:19 pm

I may try replacing the rear brakes on my '66 SS180, and have a few questions:

1. Does 55ish lb/ft of torque sound about right for the rear hub nut?
2. Is a third-hand tool necessary?
3. Any tips for how to tackle this without a jack?

Thx.
gimme that step-thru, yeah, cuz i need that.

epsato
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Re: New Shoes

Postby epsato » Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:19 pm

1) I believe so. More the merrier in the removal part
2) it helps. But having a second person does too. Better to have both
3) turn the scooter sideways and lay it on the grass/blankets. Or use milk crates under the backside of the frame.

or hit up scott bezinsky. We (okay, mostly he) replaced brakes on two scoots in one day.

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jenny
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Re: New Shoes

Postby jenny » Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:52 pm

thanks, enrique!
gimme that step-thru, yeah, cuz i need that.

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Zeets
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Re: New Shoes

Postby Zeets » Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:06 pm

As far as removal is concerned, you'll likely need a buddy to step on the rear brake as you're trying to break the nut loose. Leave the tire on, keep it on the center stand and use a breaker bar. Conversely, you can try (it may not work) to put the breaker bar on the ground (smooth pavement) and try rolling the bike backwards to pop the nut loose. I find the best tool for the job is my air impact wrench, but if you, or someone you know has a good quality electric impact, it'll do the job too. Reinstall will be the same thing, but your best bet is to again have someone stand on the brake as you're tightining it up. Frankly I use the air impact on it and it makes it a quick one (wo)man job.

Laying it over is the easiest way to service it, I always take my engine cowl off and lay the bike on some shipping blankets. Since my gas cap seals meh at best, I like to run a bunch of gas out to start, below half tank, to keep it from leaking.

Are you certain you need new pads? Have you tried taking slack up on the barrel adjuster? For that I like to take up slack until the brake is rubbing lightly, and then back it off until its just contacting the high spots or barely not at all ( depending on the roundness of the drum, mine isn't very true so I like to have a little contact that wears off in the first few stops) also, if your adjuster is maxed out you can put it all but two turns in and then take up slack with a third hand and then fine tune it with the barrel.

Also, don't neglect the cotter and lock. I prefer to replace the cotter pin with a new one, $.10 is cheap for my piece of mind.
Zayretow

70' Vespa Sprint (2009 LML power)
74' Yamaha RD350 (pinger)
2008 Suzuki DRZ-400SM (thumper)

epsato
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Re: New Shoes

Postby epsato » Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:18 pm

Zeets wrote:Also, don't neglect the cotter and lock. I prefer to replace the cotter pin with a new one, $.10 is cheap for my piece of mind.


Yes. Dave Harris from Pittsburgh broke a collarbone last year because of a broken cotter pin related incident. Rear wheel fell right off...

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jenny
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Re: New Shoes

Postby jenny » Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:03 pm

you bring up a very good question about whether or not it actually needs new pads (though i have them), and i'm going to google the rest of the stuff in that paragraph, because i have no idea what it means. maybe i need to organize a workshop day at my place. and yes, smart call on the cotter pin -- i'll order one. thanks, adam.

Zeets wrote:Are you certain you need new pads? Have you tried taking slack up on the barrel adjuster? For that I like to take up slack until the brake is rubbing lightly, and then back it off until its just contacting the high spots or barely not at all ( depending on the roundness of the drum, mine isn't very true so I like to have a little contact that wears off in the first few stops) also, if your adjuster is maxed out you can put it all but two turns in and then take up slack with a third hand and then fine tune it with the barrel.
gimme that step-thru, yeah, cuz i need that.

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Zeets
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Re: New Shoes

Postby Zeets » Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:13 pm

So, the barrel adjuster is the little bolt do-hickey that the cable housing terminates into. It's got a 9 and 10mm flats, I believe, but don't recall exactly.

Over time the brake pad friction surface wears, obviously, so the clearance between the two surfaces becomes greater. Also, the cable stretches and the housing compresses, so over time you have to remove excess slack. That little adjuster will tighten everything back up and make the pedal firm again. You'd be surprised the difference 1/6" of cable slack will make.
This is what the bottom of the motor looks like, the slack adjuster for the brake is the back-left in this picture, this pic was taken from the right side.
Zayretow

70' Vespa Sprint (2009 LML power)
74' Yamaha RD350 (pinger)
2008 Suzuki DRZ-400SM (thumper)

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Zeets
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Re: New Shoes

Postby Zeets » Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:27 pm

Also, the OE pads are likely better than most of the aftermarket pads you can buy. Unless you bought Vespa brand pads the ones in the bike are likely better than the ones you'll be installing. Of course if they're worn out, then this is all moot.

Does the bike stop well? Or do you have feel like it's metal on metal? Does it make any bad noises? Loud squealing? If not they're likely OK.
Zayretow

70' Vespa Sprint (2009 LML power)
74' Yamaha RD350 (pinger)
2008 Suzuki DRZ-400SM (thumper)

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jenny
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Re: New Shoes

Postby jenny » Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:44 am

thanks for the extra info -- very helpful. the rear brakes are just not very responsive anymore, no noises or anything, though. hopefully your suggestion will do the trick.
gimme that step-thru, yeah, cuz i need that.

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Zeets
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Re: New Shoes

Postby Zeets » Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:52 pm

Vespa brakes aren't the easiest set of drum brakes to service for your first whack at shoe replacement. Since the shoes pivot on two pins, instead of cupping one pin, the installation isn't the most straightforward. It takes a fair amount of hand strength to get the pads on and since there's a fairly tight tolerance on the pins, getting the pads over cam while forcing the spring open is tough. Plus it's best to clean the backing plate fairly thoroughly and lube all the wear points after a light scuffing. You'll need c-clip pliers (or be good with a tiny screwdriver) and the third-hand isn't necessary, but helps a lot. Plus, you'll have to fool with the barrel adjuster anyway. So why not start there.
Zayretow

70' Vespa Sprint (2009 LML power)
74' Yamaha RD350 (pinger)
2008 Suzuki DRZ-400SM (thumper)

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jenny
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Re: New Shoes

Postby jenny » Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:25 pm

ok, barrel adjuster it is. fingers crossed.
gimme that step-thru, yeah, cuz i need that.

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toigo
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Re: New Shoes

Postby toigo » Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:29 pm

Zeets covered most of it. You can do it with one person and a long enough breaker bar or a pipe on the end of a socket for extra reach and leverage. Definitely try to rough up the old brake pads with low grit sand paper and clean the pads, brake plate, and inside of the drum off very well with brake cleaner. Anytime I've taken pads off of an old Vespa they were still good, but just glazed over and needed to get sanded.

You should wear plastic gloves and a respirator if you have one since the original break pads likely have asbestos in them.

No need to tip the bike over. I just slip the strong side (bottom) of a milk crate under the rear of the bike which should lift the rear wheel up an inch or so. Do this after you loosen the axle nut and then make sure to put something in front of the bike so it can't roll forward.

You can just get the cotter pin from any hardware store for less than a buck so don't bother ordering one. Get a few.

You don't need a 3rd hand tool, but it should make it easier. I've got a spare you can have if you want. You may also run into issues with the end of the brake cable being frayed which makes it difficult to feed through the pinch bolt. You'll need two 13mm wrenches or sockets I believe.

You should definitely do this too. As far as safety, solid rear brakes are critical for any kind of emergency braking since the front brakes don't do a whole lot. You can give me a call if you have questions.

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jenny
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Re: New Shoes

Postby jenny » Thu May 01, 2014 10:17 pm

thanks a lot, matt.
gimme that step-thru, yeah, cuz i need that.

dirtyhandslopez
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Re: New Shoes

Postby dirtyhandslopez » Wed May 14, 2014 7:19 pm

It might be wise to order a new rear hub seal just for grins. If the brakes have become unresponsive, it could be the seal has got hard and is leaking transmission oil all over the brake shoes.
If that is the case, definately put new shoes on. Also, buy a can of brake/carb cleaner, they'll both work, and give everything a good hosing down to get rid of the oil
Also, scuff up the part where the brake shoe rub on the hub with some coarse sandpaper, the new shoes will bite a lot better.
Piaggio says less than 2mm of friction material on shoe, change 'em. As others have said though, new ones can be worse than old ones,I have seen new ones with less than 2mm, so check what you have.
When you do have everything installed, wind the adjust all the way into the casing, that way you will have adjust when the shoes start to wear. You will more than likely have to re-adjust after 100 miles or so.
If you don't care to lean scooter onto panel, you can remove front wheel and the scoot will pivot on the stand, bringing the back wheel up in the air to get the hub off, after you have undone the nut. Then throw a small piece of wood under the engine case to hold the back wheel up to do the work.
The balance point of the stand makes the scoot pretty light on the back end, so you could probably do it with no one else around if need be.
Just make sure the scoot cannot roll foward when you tilt it or the stand will fold up and the scoot will go down.
So glad you opened the thread with "new shoes".Drum brakes take shoes and disc brakes take pads...
Good luck.
That's not going anywhere

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jenny
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Re: New Shoes

Postby jenny » Thu May 15, 2014 1:00 pm

thanks, darren. you know, this is the ss, which has run like a charm this whole time since you worked on it many years ago. i can't complain about that streak.
gimme that step-thru, yeah, cuz i need that.


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